Not Easy Being Greenville: The Neighborhood Isn't As Bad As Some Think, But Can New Zoning Rules Make It Better?

Recently when I spent time over in North Oak Cliff talking to people for a story about what North Oak Cliff wants, the most consistent theme was, "Not Lower Greenville."

They want cool entertainment venues in North Oak Cliff, but they don't want drunks, public urination and an atmosphere of rampant crime.

Like we do? Lower Greenville happens to be my part of town. So what are we? Urinetown? I guess I missed the chapter when we became the second circle of Dante's Inferno reserved for carnal malefactors.

Of course I am aware of stubborn issues in the small bar and restaurant district where Greenville Avenue meets Ross Avenue, two miles east of downtown in Old East Dallas. And especially in the last year I have heard people bitching about a general decline there.

Recently I found myself wondering if the part of town on the east side of Central Expressway where I live is really more crime-ridden than the one on the west side, where I work.

So I did some checking. I was able to come up with a rough apples-to-apples comparison of the area five blocks deep on both sides of Lower Greenville compared with a similar area in both size and population along the Lemmon Avenue/McKinney axis (taking in West Village and Uptown, along with some of Turtle Creek Drive and Oak Lawn Avenue).

The apple I came up with—crimes per acre—offers at least a crude benchmark with which to make a comparison. In a four-year period ending January 1, my Excel spreadsheet counted 8.62 crimes per acre in the East Dallas area around Lower Greenville and 12.90 crimes per acre in the Oak Lawn/McKinney axis.

Quite a dramatic difference—a crime rate west of Central 50 percent higher than on the east side of Central.

I will allow for my own considerable lack of expertise as a statistician by backing off from tightly drawn conclusions. Except for this one: If there is a perception out there that the general Lower Greenville Avenue area is notably more crime-prone than any other mixed commercial and residential area in the inner city, that perception is not based on reality.

In the next breath, it must be said there is trouble on Lower Greenville. By two and two, the civilized venues like Ibero Latin Cuisine and Gezellig Jazz Club on Lower Greenville have shut their doors to be replaced by gang-banger clubs or college puke bars where the bouncers carry out the alcohol-poisoned SMU students and stack them on the curb like cordwood.

When I talk to the people who have tried to operate cool places on Lower Greenville, they tend to tick down the same laundry list of reasons why civilized places have more trouble surviving, but basically it comes to this: It's all about the ability of the community to control the type of businesses that take over rental spaces.

As it stands, that ability is not much. Straight-up police enforcement on the street quickly becomes a trap—something the city should have learned in the West End and then again in Deep Ellum.

Certain young male idiot-types—absolutely without reference to ethnicity or class, just maleness—actually like it when you crack down on them. It draws them in instead of pushing them away. What you wind up with is a playground for aggressive young males who like to fight. Aggressive young gang-bangers. Aggressive young fraternity boys. Aggressive young cops.

State liquor laws are even more useless, full of loopholes and Catch-22s put there by the booze lobby. State law says a business is a bar if 75 percent or more of its gross receipts come from liquor. But bars can dodge that formula in a number of ways.

They can lie about it, but they can game the system even without lying. They can charge fat cover charges, slash the price of drinks and then count all of the cover charge money as non-liquor sales. They can do that legally.

Bobby Hood, who operated Gezellig, told me his place was driven out of business by a law enforcement and code enforcement climate that only works against you if you have some intention of obeying the law.

"I'm a lawyer. I have a law license. I'm not going to deliberately violate the law," he said. But he said plenty of other operators on the street seem to have business plans based on intentional violations that local and state law are impotent to correct.

It's a theme echoed by Bruce Richardson of the Lowest Greenville Neighborhood Association. He said illegal operations—bars masquerading as restaurants in violation of their zoning—know exactly how long they have to rake in the cash before a city or state audit can nail them.

"They have three months before that audit is completed, and then they just shut their doors."

Avi Adelman, another neighborhood activist, said the whole thing becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. "The bad stuff scares the good stuff."

Only the bad remain.

It's not that bad yet. Plenty of nice places still operate on Lower Greenville, and there are responsible landlords who don't intend to give up. Some of them, like Andres Properties, owned by brothers Marc and Roger, chafe at the portrayal of Lower Greenville as a high-crime zone. The Andreses also resent the portrayal of Lower Greenville as an area where there is no safe parking and you have to risk your neck.

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  • Mstreetsresident 03/10/2010 8:36:00 PM

    I live on a street where you cannot park on the street even if you are a resident, so good luck peeing on my car :). It helps no matter what you state otherwise....well lit areas deter petty crimes or call attention to them in the act. "Good, bad, im the guy with the gun", (Evil Dead 2, Army of Darkness, Bruce Campbell)) or in my case the cell phone to call the police and report the crime and get restitution. Trust me when I say this, you have not dealt with as much vandalism, theft, graffiti, car crashes, and loitering as I have in regards to my location. I am still pleased with the 95% of the good times I have sitting on the porch, waving to my neighbors, and enjoying the area. I like the fact that I know who my money goes to when I spend it and that I can shake their hands a few times a month instead of reading about them on Wall Street.......I live, play, and spend on Main Street. I am sure we both have shared similar good times.......this weekend included. FYI, if you have concern about this weekend too, google Angela Hunt and call her.....she will listen.

  • Matt 03/09/2010 10:08:00 PM

    "I think the issues at hand are not necessarily the reported crimes, but the behavior of rowdy drunks, the mobs hanging out and prowling the strip. I don't see this type of socially offensive behavior in the Oak Lawn/McKinney area." "Socially offensive" isn't a crime. "Socially offensive" is subjective to opinions.

  • Recycling Team 03/09/2010 4:23:00 PM

    Albeit, slightly unrelated, anyone interested in participating in a solutions-oriented approach to the St Paddy's Parade this Saturday, can join the parade Recycling Team (we're working with GAABA and the Observer) from inside the ropes. I've heard all the jokes, but it's a good way to show support for the parade in doing a bit o' good by helping divert some of the waste created ("bottles and cans, just clap your hands") from the landfill. To join/more info: http://tr.im/QiNw

  • Trish Sathre 03/08/2010 7:38:00 PM

    I think the issues at hand are not necessarily the reported crimes, but the behavior of rowdy drunks, the mobs hanging out and prowling the strip. I don't see this type of socially offensive behavior in the Oak Lawn/McKinney area.

  • Ace McGill 03/06/2010 11:22:00 PM

    I agree this is a problem, but part of the issues yet to be considered is the current Dallas / American culture. The twenty somethings comming up now were raised in the organized play way of life. Parents now keep their kids busy with sports and other programs and they don't develop the out to be out see to be seen attitude. The greatest effect technology has had on our culture is that it's no longer necessary to go out to find your peers. Be they goth, Dance,punk, regee, blues or country exploration of new things is mostly passive through the Internet. All the activity in Ellum didn't go to uptown/Henderson it just went away. Combine all the entertainment districts vs ten or fifteen years ago and you will find fewer people out and mostly an older average for sure.

  • Robert H. Dicks II 03/05/2010 3:14:00 AM

    The basic problem is the city lacks any credibility on this issue. You site Deep Ellum as a success story in the way special use permits work but has anybody been there lately? Deep Ellum is a ghost town waiting for the developers to move in, mow down the historic structures, and give us all that Gap and CVS it seems no neighborhood can live without. I'm sure a bank or seven will make their way in there as well. That's the fear citizens of lower Greenville have, particularly in light of the fire that destroyed Terrilli's, Mick's, GBG, and Hurricane. While I understand nobody down here signed up for a bunch of urinating pugilists in their neighborhood, neither did most of us sign up to watch unique businesses giving us a vibrant nightlife turn into just another street in the United States of Generica. A former city council member just got sentenced for taking kickbacks from developers but we're supposed to trust the current council and mayor are somehow on the up and up when they talk about changing lower Greenville? Maybe I'm in the minority, but give me the drunks over yet another bland suburban landscape. Success lies somewhere in the middle but damned if I trust this city's ability to find it.

  • Resident 03/05/2010 2:57:00 AM

    I moved into the complex one block north of Greenville/Ross intersection (Vue Greenville) two years ago. I love my apartment; the complex has great amenities, is reasonably priced, and I have a huge tree outside of my window. When I moved in, this was a residential area that happened to be close to a lot of restaurants and bars...there was some noise on Friday and Saturday nights, maybe a little more often during summer, but nothing to call in a noise violation about (not that the police have time to do anything about noise violations around here now). The neighborhood was safe, and I always felt comfortable walking alone (as a 20-something female) even at 9 or 10 at night. Now, the noise is enough to keep anyone awake, every night. Blaring car stereos and revving engines are constant. Police sirens are frequent. The shooting on Sunday night may be extreme, but it's not an uncommon *type* of behavior. The neighborhood is now full of gangster-types, and you couldn't pay me to leave our gated complex after 8 by myself. I planned to buy in this neighborhood when I chose to move here, but I can't live in such a high-crime, disruptive neighborhood. When I do buy a home later this year, it won't be in this area, and I promise there are plenty of other young professionals who would have considered the neighborhood a year ago who wouldn't come down here with a police escort now.

  • Resident 03/05/2010 2:56:00 AM

    I moved into the complex one block north of Greenville/Ross intersection (Vue Greenville) two years ago. I love my apartment; the complex has great amenities, is reasonably priced, and I have a huge tree outside of my window. When I moved in, this was a residential area that happened to be close to a lot of restaurants and bars...there was some noise on Friday and Saturday nights, maybe a little more often during summer, but nothing to call in a noise violation about (not that the police have time to do anything about noise violations around here now). The neighborhood was safe, and I always felt comfortable walking alone (as a 20-something female) even at 9 or 10 at night. Now, the noise is enough to keep anyone awake, every night. Blaring car stereos and revving engines are constant. Police sirens are frequent. The shooting on Sunday night may be extreme, but it's not an uncommon *type* of behavior. The neighborhood is now full of gangster-types, and you couldn't pay me to leave our gated complex after 8 by myself. I planned to buy in this neighborhood when I chose to move here, but I can't live in such a high-crime, disruptive neighborhood. When I do buy a home later this year, it won't be in this area, and I promise there are plenty of other young professionals who would have considered the neighborhood a year ago who wouldn't come down here with a police escort now.

  • Patrick Springer 03/05/2010 12:58:00 AM

    Is it because of the excess parking spots that the Andres Brothers recently attempted to appropriate the 5 on-street spaces in front of their Pussycat Lounge/Slice Pizza tenants stores, to be used for patios? It is my understanding that construction began on appropriating these spots, as well as several in the next block South. No permits had been issued & the city odered the spots returned to their original condition after receiving complaints.

  • WashHater 03/04/2010 9:05:00 PM

    Andres' parking comment is dreadfully ridiculous. I started visiting Lowest Greenville a good 8 years ago, and used to go a few nights a week and have a great time with friends and meet cool people virtually every trip. Since then, virtually every hangout has been converted to a wanna-be ultra-lounge (Sofrano's, Sugar Shack), or a drink hard thug bar (Public House). On top of that, lots that used to be free parking are now all valet that charges $10-$20, and the "free street spaces" get coned off by valet stands or bar owners for VIP customers on nights when there are actually people around. Billiard Bar and Libertine stand as exceptions, and I love to visit both establishments still during the week, but on Friday and Saturday nights, I'm as far away from Lowest Greenville as I can be. There's other good places in the area like Teppo, Daddy Jack's, and Dodie's, but the few bad seeds are really crushing the entire area.

  • Mstreetsresident 03/04/2010 6:04:00 PM

    I love Greenville bohemian mixture of people and openess to all. I sold my home in Mckinney 4 years ago, moved down to Greenville, and cut out 30k miles a year of driving for work and play. I live ON Greenville and experience every disturbance there is from car chases to pukers and the wanna be thugs. None of these scare me away. I would like some peace during the weekdays. THERE IS PARKING, ITS JUST SPREAD OUT. The issue is lighting and patrol presence. Now for safetys reason, none of the streets are well lit or patroled outside of the immediate hot spots for the police on LOWEST GREENVILLE, SOUTH OF BELMONT. This is a huge cause for break ins and issues with commuter drinkers causing issues with local neighbors. I will gladly light up my yard and alley way in the evenings but majority of my neighbors do not have this and the city light is inadequate too. I will not go south of Belmont anymore due to physical confrontations I have been involved with SMU students and thug wanna bes. I have deceided I am not going to risk going to prison if some kid, cop, or thug grabs me and I end up on top before realizing one of them is seriously injured. I think its maturity level and age inexperience only causing issues, alcohol just confuses each of these subsets and excerbates the problems. Not everything is going to be perfect and it takes trial and error and evolution is slow. Be patient and proactive but we do not need new laws, just becoming more active and promoting things like LIVE LOCAL EAST DALLAS. I will share some bad nights for the fun and convience of living, almost on top of lower greenville. I am pulling for the best especially when we just lost our strong holds for the community.

  • Al 03/04/2010 4:26:00 PM

    Oh, they cleaned up Deep Ellum all right... by running everyone out of business. These laws are going to make Lower Greenville the same sort of ghost town that Deep Ellum is today. The problem is that the militant neighbors DO want Lower Greenville to be dead.

  • blankman 03/04/2010 10:06:00 AM

    give me a break on parking. i know im fighting an uphill battle here, but first of all it's an older urban area with many residential dwellings. i've NEVER had trouble parking anywhere on greenville. you might have to park 2, heaven forbid 3 whole blocks away. i just dont see what's so catastrophic about that. second, Greenville Ave is F**ked in nearly every which way. all of which point to a lack of any neighborhood integrity: - the ugly tear-downs, mcmansions and mini-castles, along w/ rows of condos. - the bars that do exist are velvet-roped w/ bouncers, lines and covers. definitely not what residents in that neighborhood want. - poorly lit and painted cross-walks in busy areas, lead to ped unfriendliness. - where's a single laid-back bar? the place to throw darts? the coffeeshop? the bookstore? the halfway decent restaurant? (thank god for world piece). instead we have the club scene which in nearly every other city in the country resides downtown. of course it's going to run-down the neighborhood. it's just sad that developers, city officials and even some blame goes to citizens that Deep Ellum was ruined, Lower Greenville is ruined and West End never even got off the ground b/c they were chomping at the bit to whore that place out too. no wonder the OC has their act together as a true community.

  • David Wilson 03/04/2010 1:06:00 AM

    The article quotes Marc Andres as saying... Marc Andres said to me, "I believe there are more parking spaces than there are cars looking for parking spaces on Lower Greenville on any day of the year with the exception of St. Patrick's Day. The idea that there is not is an untruth." But Jim did not hear the rest of the sentence since a car drove by and honked at him. The complete sentence should read... "I believe there are more parking spaces than there are cars looking for parking spaces on Lower Greenville on any day of the year with the exception of St. Patrick's Day provided you don't mind paying $10 or $20 for it every time. There are no free spaces at all, even though city code says every business should have a minimum number of free spaces. And gosh darn it, that dratted Resident Only Parking makes it impossible for bar drunks to find a decent place to park and vomit at the same time."

  • Brandolon 03/04/2010 12:23:00 AM

    I also live in the area and I agree that the extent of the problem is not NEARLY as bad as it is being made out to be. To my mind, there are several key issues here. One is the zoning. There are literally on this lowest part of Greenville ONE or TWO establishments that do not add positively to the feel of the neighborhood. There should be some ability within existing frameworks to fix this. Yet the reason this problem seems to be extending to the entire collection of businesses is to me nothing but the result of the racial & generational differences between those who frequent SOME OF the establishments and members of the surrounding community. I'm sure even a more sophisticated statistical analysis would demonstrate that this area is no more dangerous than other entertainment districts throughout the city. Yet after having traveled to numerous cities in 19 different countries I have never seen a more ridiculous spectacle and waste of police resources than on this 1 block stretch of real estate. Never. Why? Because the people coming in are different, not dangerous, but "unsavory" to some of the neighbors. "Thugs" or "prostitutes" many times for the simple reason that they don't dress the same way commenter Greg did when he ventured out while younger. Yet most of these young people aren't hurting anyone, and only represent a cross section of the folks who visit this area. The last thing I would add is that Jim has it 100% right when he talks about the "manliness" testosterone problem of the area. It's not just the young male civilians, even the cops are overly aggressive. Added together the absurd level of police presence in the area solves absolutely nothing at all and more than likely is making things progressively worse. The best thing to do with the troublemakers would be to annoy them, as most patrons are just trying to have a good night and would ignore them. By giving them so much attention you create a spectacle that draws bad attention. This area has so much promise. It's one of the only places in this city where people actually walk, visiting different establishments. Zoning is certainly I agree part of the solution in making things better, but I hope we make sure to understand that all of these businesses, in fact the vast majority of them, are not the enemy of the surrounding community or the city's progress. In fact quite the opposite.

  • Greg 03/04/2010 12:00:00 AM

    I live just a few blocks away from these bars and used to go all the time when I was younger. But, as the neighborhoods around this area have come up this strip of businesses looks worse then ever. I still love to visit some of the places in the area with good food -- And recently i decided to walk down the street and hangout after dinner. This crowd has really changed its not so much the SMU kids and yuppies anymore I saw a lot of thugs and women that looked like they were out to sell some personal services (if you know what i mean). And i don't think i have ever seen so much police activity this must be costing us a lot of money. This area is supposed to get a much needed City funded street scape make-over but if we don't get better businesses and landlords that want to invest in their properties then it is a bad investment on our part. I think the special zoning districts are a good idea. I would also advocate forcing all the businesses to stop selling alcohol at 1 am rather then at 2 am --- this might help move some of these businesses that are really Bars and not restaurants into areas like Deep Ellum and West End that can better handle them. After seeing what i saw the other night I am all for a change... We have to do something!

 

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